Abbaun: The Authentic Aramaic Meaning of the Lords Prayer
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They might speak Spanish as well as English at home, but English in the work-a-day world. That -is- the divine original, not the hypothesized Aramaic which may or may not have been spoken. Thus, to go to a hypothesized verbal Aramaic original in order to try to prove some theological point is severely flawed for historical and theological reasons. The Pesshita is a translation from the Greek into the Syriac dialect of Aramaic, not an intact Palestinian Aramaic text.
Even Matthew haLevi wrote in Greek, in spite of claims to the contrary due to the more Jewish characteristics of the Gospel. It is the same as the koine text that we have today. Or dope, or uber-leet, or whatever. But deliver us from evil. In Jesu et Maria,.
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Esau: aggressive de-helenization in subsequent centuries AD, basically. Protestants take their canon from the Masoretic texts rather than the LXX partly as a result of a confusion over just such an issue. Thanks, MenTaLguy! I knew it had something to do with the fact that the Septuagint was in Greek, not Hebrew; and that, at the time the Jews were deciding their Canon, they had some sort of identity crisis with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. From what I learned way back when, their whole world was centered on the Temple. When that was destroyed, they were dispersed when Titus and the Roman legions destroyed the Temple, and the Jews were really struggling for their identity and there was some sort of backlash against anything Greek corresponding, of course, to what you just said and, we could also argue, against anything Christian as well.
About what you said though: Protestants take their canon from the Masoretic texts rather than the LXX partly as a result of a confusion over just such an issue. I agree; for example, if you look in Hebrews 11, there is a place where it talks about how some of the heroes of the Faith have refused to be released and have been killed and martyred in order to obtain a better Resurrection.
The New Testament writers had actually used the Septuagint tradition as their version for the Old Testament Scriptures. In fact, I remember a Protestant minister convert telling me that a seminary professor in his Protestant university actually taught this as well. Actually, what Jesus said was the original. Also, for anyone trying to make sense of the script while listening to the prayer, this is in the Estrangela script and does not have vowel pointing — it is only the consonants, which is quite standard for Semitic scripts.
This would make it more difficult to make much sense of the script without knowing the words! Sometimes they are not, but this is due to the complicated history of the LXX text, and the quotations that are not exact are cosistently closer to the LXX than the MT. Thank-ya, brothers!!!! Another one of the important factors in the Jewish rejection of the Deuterocanonicals was a Jewish revolt against the Romans in the s. Because Christians obviously did not consider this man to be the Messiah, they did not participate in the revolt, which earned them the status of traitors amongst many Jews.
After this time, an effort can be found in Jewish circles to exclude those books which supported Christian doctrines. The Prayer Life of the Historical Jesus. He concludes: Situating this sentence prayer within its social context makes clear that it arose from certain specific situations in which Jesus found himself.
Shane: as a matter of fact, the hatred of the mainline Jews for the Christians far preceded the Bar Kochba revolt. It is found in the New Testament. The Bar Kochba revolt has in my view a different significance. If I remember my Eusebius correctly, it did not take place in Palestine alone, but all across the Eastern Mediterranean from Cilicia to Cyrenaica.
This was the heartland of the Roman Empire — Europe was a secondary part at the time — and the accounts suggest to me that this war represented a genuine Jewish attempt to eviscerate and conquer the Empire. Such an attempt is clearly prophesied in the Dead Sea Scrolls, with descriptions of armies of Jews and angels overthrowing Kittim Roman legions in an apocalyptic struggle for power over the whole world. His collapse, then, must have represtented a turning point for the Jews.
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Traditional Jewish literature as it has come down to our time does not contain anything even remotely similar to the war prophecies of the Dead Sea literature: to the contrary, Jews are enjoined to pray for the peace and prosperity of whatever country they find themselves in. The idea of conquering all the world for God has transmigrated to the Muslims, but it was completely lost in Judaism; and, in this if nothing else, Judaism aligned itself with Christianity, whose leaders had demanded prayers for the Emperor and the magistrates from the beginning of their preaching.
Neat Video. Is this original link? I came across this just recently. Thank you for posting this.
I heard about it on your podcast, and feel closer to Our Lord by hearing His prayer in the language He spoke. Again, thank you! Hey guys…. The only number about 3. I am analyzing the different feelings that that saying elicited during the Medieval Period. Thus, I am wondering if you know the original source of the saying. Where it is found in the New Testaments, in the Talmud and any other sources you are aware of that contain that saying.
Additionally, where is this Aramaic source from? Which century?
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Thank you very much! Sincerely, Abby. How do you know that the translation was completely wrong? Maybe the translation is correct? As a disenfranchised Catholic who is annoyed with the church on many issues, I am just curious why you chose to not to post the web address. You could have posted it and stated why you disagree with it. Otherwise, it looks like censorship.
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I learned the Abwun de washmaya several years ago. A part of the historical point, it is wonderful to communicate with heaven in the language of Christ. Im am wondering that no more people speak this prayer in Aramaic language. Not even the priests and the pastors. Thank you for all the information above. Rose-Marie Thoma Switzerland I just read the above posts, and the one by pseudomodo espcially retained my attention.
According to Tresmontant the Gospels have been written not long after the Crucifixion, certainly before the destruction of the Second Temple, and in Hebrew. For anyone who has some knowledge of Greek and Hebrew it is very impressive.
1) Abba, Father
Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him! But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.
Strengthen my identity as Your child and help me to glorify Your name by reflecting Your character. It is the form Jesus used in His anguished cry in Gethsemane:.
The “Original Aramaic Lord’s Prayer” is None of the Above | James McGrath
Abba , Father, everything is possible for You. Take this cup from Me. Yet not what I will, but what You will. Who is Jesus speaking to when He tells the story of the wayward son? What might be a counterpart audience in our world? Luke Why do you think the story is left open-ended? If you want to perceive who God the Father is, earthly models will fail you. Far better to read the parable Jesus told an audience composed of both sinners and self-righteous religious leaders, two groups that had much in common though they would not have thought so.
Jesus offers both a stunning portrait of a father who responds to the appalling behavior of two sons in ways no Middle Eastern patriarch would have. Angry villagers would gather together to conduct what was known as a qetsatsah ceremony, a ritual that consisted of filling a large pot with burned nuts and burned corn and then breaking it in front of the guilty party. As soon as he spots him, he runs out and throws his arms around his wayward son, showering him with kisses.
By acting quickly and with so much tenderness, the father effectively prevents his neighbors from organizing a qetsatsah ceremony to cut off his son. Kenneth Bailey, a theologian who has lived most of his life in the Middle East, explains how astonishing such a sight would have been:. Traditional Middle Easterners, wearing long robes, do not run in public. They never have. To do so would be deeply humiliating. The father runs knowing that in so doing he will deflect the attention of the community away from his ragged son to himself.
People will focus on the extraordinary sight of a distinguished, self-respecting landowner humiliating himself in public by running down the road revealing his legs. Once again, Jesus depicts the father in a way that would have surprised His listeners. Instead of slapping his son and publicly rebuking him for refusing to attend the celebration, the father humbles himself by leaving the feast in order to reach out to his angry son. Both sons, one a law breaker and the other a law keeper, had publicly offended their father by their selfish behavior. Both were offered not what they deserved but what they needed — extraordinary grace from the father who loved them.